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- cross-posted to:
- [email protected]
We are constantly fed a version of AI that looks, sounds and acts suspiciously like us. It speaks in polished sentences, mimics emotions, expresses curiosity, claims to feel compassion, even dabbles in what it calls creativity.
But what we call AI today is nothing more than a statistical machine: a digital parrot regurgitating patterns mined from oceans of human data (the situation hasnāt changed much since it was discussed here five years ago). When it writes an answer to a question, it literally just guesses which letter and word will come next in a sequence ā based on the data itās been trained on.
This means AI has no understanding. No consciousness. No knowledge in any real, human sense. Just pure probability-driven, engineered brilliance ā nothing more, and nothing less.
So why is a real āthinkingā AI likely impossible? Because itās bodiless. It has no senses, no flesh, no nerves, no pain, no pleasure. It doesnāt hunger, desire or fear. And because there is no cognition ā not a shred ā thereās a fundamental gap between the data it consumes (data born out of human feelings and experience) and what it can do with them.
Philosopher David Chalmers calls the mysterious mechanism underlying the relationship between our physical body and consciousness the āhard problem of consciousnessā. Eminent scientists have recently hypothesised that consciousness actually emerges from the integration of internal, mental states with sensory representations (such as changes in heart rate, sweating and much more).
Given the paramount importance of the human senses and emotion for consciousness to āhappenā, there is a profound and probably irreconcilable disconnect between general AI, the machine, and consciousness, a human phenomenon.
A bold statement given that we donāt actually understand how the brain operates exactly and what algorithms that would translate into.
The straw man is you continuing to argue against equating LLMs with the functioning of the brain, something I never said here.
You appear to be conflating the implementation details of how the brain works with the what itās doing in a semantic sense. There is zero evidence that all the complexity of the brain is inherent to the way our reasoning functions. Again, we donāt have a full understanding of how the brain accomplishes tasks like reasoning. It may be a lot more complex than what LLMs do, or it may not be. We do not know.
Finally, none of this has anything to do with the point I was actually making which is regarding embodiment. You decided to ignore that to focus on braying about tech companies and LLMs instead.
Iām not claiming you ever said they functioned exactly the same way. Im simply stating that youāre way off base when you claim that they appear to operate using the same principles or that all evidence suggests the human mind is nothing more than a probability machine. Thatās not a straw man. You literally said those things.
Youāre betraying your own ignorance about neuroscience. The complexity of the brain is absolutely linked with its ability to reason and we have plenty of evidence to show that. The evolutionary process does not just create needless complexity if there is a more efficient path.
This is such a silly statement especially when youāve been claiming that both the brain and AI appear to work using the same principles. If you truly believe the mind is such a mystery then stop making that claim.
I donāt really care about your arguments concerning embodiment because theyāre so beside the point when you just blowing right by the most basic principles of neuroscience.
I bring up tech companies because theyāve had a massively distorting effect on how many computer scientists think the world works. Youāre not immune to it either simply because youāre a critic of capitalism. A ruthless criticism of that exists includes the very researchers whose work youāre taking at face value.
I literally said these things, and you never gave any actual counter argument to either of them.
Youāre betraying your ignorance of how biology works and illustrating that you have absolutely no business debating this subject. Efficiency is not the primary fitness function for evolution, itās survivability. And that means having a lot of redundancy baked into the system. Hereās a concrete example for you of just how much of the brain isnāt actually essential for normal day to day function. https://www.rifters.com/crawl/?p=6116
Thereās nothing silly in stating that the underlying principles are similar, but we donāt understand a lot of the mechanics of the brain. If you truly canāt understand such basic things thereās little point trying to have a meaningful discussion.
Thatās literally the whole context for this thread, it just doesnāt fit with the straw man you want to argue about.
Whose work am I taking at face value specifically? Youāre just spewing nonsense here without engaging with anything Iām saying.
Have some humility and willingness to learn.
I didnāt say it was the primary function. I guess all that talk about straw men was just projection. You donāt trust me, fine. Then what about Darwin who literally said, āNatural selection is continually trying to economize every part of the organization.ā Now please go and read some introductory texts on biology before trying to explain to me why Darwin is wrong. Thereās so much going on when it comes to the thermodynamics of living systems and youāre clearly not ready to have a conversation about it.
Youāre baseless assuming that hydrocephalus causes the brain to lose a substantial amount of its complexity. Where is the evidence for that? In most of these cases it seems much of the outer layers of the cerebral cortex are in tact. Itās also really telling that your citationās first source is an article titled āIs Your Brain Really Necessaryā which is followed in the Journal by another article entitled āMath and Sex: Are Girls Born with Less Ability?ā. But hey neuroscience hasnāt really advanced at all since 1980 right? The brain is totally redundant right? Thereās no possible way a critical and discerning person such as yourself could have been taken in by junk science, right?!!
I took issue with specific statements you made that stand apart from the rest of your comment. Thatās not a straw man. Although honestly this is on me. What can I expect from someone who thinks LLMs and the Human Brain are operating on similar principles? Youāre so wound up in a pseudoscientific fiction thereās nothing I can do. You might as well start believing in the astrology, crystals, and energy healing. At least those interests will make you seem fun and quirky instead of just an over confident tech bro.
I have plenty of willingness to learn from people who have a clue on the subject.
You literally tried to argue that evolution doesnāt create complexity if thereās a more efficient path.th.
Again, youāre showing a superficial understanding of the subject here. Natural selection selects for overall fitness, and efficiency is only a small part of equation. For example, plants donāt use the most efficient wavelength for producing energy, they use the one thatās most reliably available. Similarly, living organisms have all kinds of redundancies that allow them to continue to function when theyāre damaged. Evolution optimizes for survival over efficiency.
Maybe read the actual paper linked there?
What I linked you is a case study of an actual living person who was missing large parts of their brain and had a relatively normal life. But hey why focus on the actual facts when you can just write more word salad right?
You took issue with made up straw man arguments that you yourself made and have fuck all with what I actually said. Then you proceeded to demonstrate that you donāt actually understand the subject youāre debating. You might as well start believing in the astrology, crystals, and energy healing. At least those interests will make you seem fun and quirky instead of just a sad debate bro.
Youāre missing the point entirely. Biological systems are governed by the laws thermodynamics. The reason why complex structures are even possible in a universe where entropy is king is because biological systems offer the most direct path towards a total increase in the amount of entropy in our little corner of the universe. Natural selection is governed by those principles. The brain has a disproportionately high metabolism relative to other organs in the human body. To argue itās largely a redundant structure like the kidneys or liver you need real evidence.
You linked a fucking blog post written by a science fiction author not a peer reviewed scientific paper. And yes I did read it. Is your ego so large that you canāt possible conceive of someone coming to a different conclusion when faced with the same āevidenceā?
Word Salad? Is this word salad, āIn most of these cases it seems much of the outer layers of the cerebral cortex are in tact.ā? Do you not have an argument against that or do you know so little about the human brain that ācerebral cortexā sounds like gibberish to you? If youāre not convinced how about you try taking a lobe out of someone whose brain hasnāt been forced to adapt to extreme conditions and tell me how that experiment works out. Maybe then youāll understand how āredundantā the brain really is.
Big āI know you are but what am Iā energy. lol
Iām not missing anything. Iām simply explaining to you that the fitness function for living organisms is far more complex than simply striving for efficiency. I understand perfectly well how entropy and thermodynamics work.
There is plenty of real evidence. Iāve literally provided you evidence of a person with most of their brain missing who has led a normal life. Another obvious example is people who lose half their brain in accidents and can continue to live normal lives with a single hemisphere. More evidence comes from birds like corvids who exhibit high levels of intelligence and problem solving thatās comparable to primates. Since they have an additional requirement of being able to fly, there is a selection pressure to optimize the system further. Just because youāre completely ignorant on the topic youāre attempting to debate here doesnāt mean that evidence doesnāt exist.
I linked you a blog post by a biologist discussing a paper. This is a very well known case thatās in no way controversial. The fact that youāre acting as if it just just further shows that you have no business having this discussion. https://www.cbc.ca/radio/asithappens/as-it-happens-thursday-edition-1.3679117/scientists-research-man-missing-90-of-his-brain-who-leads-a-normal-life-1.3679125
about the level of discourse Iāve come to expect from you lol
Youāre being deeply uncharitable here. I never said redundancy in biological systems is something that is never selected for. I was simply stating that the selection for such redundancy is bound by thermodynamic processes that govern natural selection in the first place. Physicists that have ventured into the field of biology have suggested that this is the case for decades. However itās only in the past 15 or so years that the field has advanced to the point where these hypotheses are testable. Honestly itās fascinating and outside of this dumb argument you should look into it because it aligns surprisingly well with Marxās observations about economic development. If you are genuinely interested Iāll share some papers.
No there isnāt. Youāve just made some foolish assumptions and youāve ignored me yet again. I wonāt dox myself but this isnāt some casual interest for me. To give you some idea of where Iām coming from, Iāve seen a hemispherectomy before. Iāve literally stared into a persons skull as half of their brain tissue was either removed or surgically disconnected. I then saw that person wake of up from anesthesia with some complications but less than someone unfamiliar with the procedure would expect. None of this is new to me.
In all of the cases youāve referenced so far, the patients have cognitive deficiencies. Itās not at all the same as a person losing a kidney or donating a lobe of their liver where a they can got on to be perfectly healthy with what remains. Itās also key to realize that in the cases youāre referencing the problem starts very early in development. That gives the brain time to develop in a unique way which allows it to retain much of its intended function. What youāre seeing is not proof of redundancy but rather proof of compensatory reorganization in the remaining tissue. Itās likely the brain in these patients have, on average, a higher degree of interconnectivity than what you might find in a normal healthy brain. In which case, some complexity is lost but maybe not as much as youāve assumed. If you tried to remove pieces of a fully healthy brain you will mostly likely see a severe loss of function, think traumatic brain injuries and stroke victims. This is amazing stuff but youāre making assumptions that just donāt align modern neuroscience.
Youāre assuming size and complexity are the same thing! They arenāt. Corvids have a way higher neural density than the brains of primates. Itās fascinating but it does not back up the idea that much of the brains complexity is redundant. In fact it would suggest the opposite because under a selective pressure to reduce the size of a brain it still seems that complexity must be preserved in order to achieve similar cognitive capacities.
Maybe at one time he was. Now heās just a science fiction author. Also what does having a degree in biology prove? I can link you to blog posts written by biologists that claim Covid 19 is a weapon created by Chinaās evil communist scientists. Would you trust them too? Academic rigor requires more than just the musings of any individual scientist.
Iām not saying the case itself is controversial. However, the assumptions youāve made and the conclusions youāre trying to draw from such cases is! At least it would be amongst neuroscientists.
I mean youāre right here in the mud with me lol.
Also, Iāve engaged with you as much as I have because I generally agree with most of what you post on this site. Iāve generally appreciated your presence. However, that makes it all the more maddening when you go on to spew such ignorance about the human brain and AI. You make bold claims and then wonāt even cite a real peer reviewed publication. I get that kind of behavior flies in online marxist circles especially since some of the best Marxist theoretical papers these days arenāt even translated into English. However, when discussing things like neuroscience I expect better. Throw the science out and what youāre left with is pure idealism.
Weāre in complete agreement here. Thermodynamics are the fundamental reason anything happens, and life exists within resolving energy gradients. The selection process favors organisms that use energy efficiently. This point is not being debated. What Iāve been saying here is that thatās only part of the picture, and efficient use of energy competes with other factors such as robustness, error recovery, and so on. Living organisms need to be able to survive in a complex and dangerous environment which creates a pressure for redundancy.
Iāve read a number of papers, and even reference a few here https://theunconductedchorus.com/
However, Iām always interested to read more on the subject. So by all means link the papers youāve read.
Sure, and Iām not arguing that removing large portions of the brain is not going to cause cognitive deficiencies. The point being made is that theyāre still able to function and retain much of the cognitive ability. Itās quite clear that the brain is able to route around the damage and compensate for it in many cases.
The original point we were debating here is what is the size and complexity of a biological neural network that starts exhibiting interesting properties that we would care about implementing in an artificial one. Itās clear that is smaller than the entire brain of a healthy human adult.
The total number of neurons and connections is significantly lower than primates, yet they are able to solve problems of similar complexity. In fact, crows exhibit abilities such as transfer learning which chimps do not.
Perhaps you should start by defining what you mean by complexity instead of just throwing the term around. Iām using it to mean the combination of the number of neurons and the connections between them.
You continue to attack his credentials, but you have yet to address what he says or what the original study of the patient suggests. Youāre dismissing the results using an argument from authority here. Clearly, heās qualified to have an opinion on the subject.
Make an actual argument to substantiate your position.
What ignorance have I spewed regarding human brain and AI. Please quote specific things I said that youāre referring to.