Wait that isn’t what I meant at all, I was contrasting the “return to nature” view with the vegan view.

I tried editing for clarity

Yes those government movie studios

Where we came from is less important than where we are going. The problems with veganism are not that they don’t eat animals, in fact I don’t think the problem is with veganism at all but with moral imperatives in general that promote black and white, oppositional political positioning. But moral imperatives are one of the most popular and effective rhetorical methods to make a point (and split opposition) so we are just kind of raised in it. If you’re someone who has strong opinions you learn to express them in a certain way.

But veganism is good, but primitivist “return to nature” types have a dubious track record aka they tend to be chuds or on their way to chuddening. “Retvrn to the past” is a conservative talking point, but what separates us from nature is capitalism, not veganism.

I mean I guess as a Marxist there are just some things we have fundamentally different understandings? The way you talk about consumerism and alienation, is fundamentally opposed to a Marxist’s definition. To a Marxist alienation isn’t subjective, it is material; a result of workers slavish relation to commodity production, as the relation that generates surplus value.

But I’m trying to back off of explicitly anarchist critiques, and kind of begrudgingly think about your basic conceptions. I’ve spent enough time around anarchists and Marxists to know that there’s something sort of broken there, broken by history. And I know enough about anarchists, who kind of effortlessly organize circles around us, and the history of anarchism as it relates to various socialist projects of the 20th century, than to do what many of my comrades do, and just like quote “On Authority” to y’all as if it has ever made a lick of difference. I guess to put it plainly: I can understand why an anarchist wouldn’t necessarily be all for a Marxist or Leninist conception of revolution, might advocate for a measure of caution and search for a “third way”. I won’t be convinced that money is anything other than a mechanism of class oppression, and the value form itself is actually a tremendous mind fuck, accounting for the alienation that workers experience.

What I think I really don’t understand, is the anarchist conception of the individual, like, in a scientific way. There’s something “in the sauce” that I can’t account for in our analysis, something that overlaps with a great deal of the working class. But if we are comrades in sharing and binding ourselves to the struggles of workers then that’s basically what’s most important. It isnt right to demand that you adhere to “correct” theoretical analysis when there is something I dont understand about like one of anarchism’s fundamental concepts, something that seems to be very “right” that comes from your tradition, something that I can’t just dismiss as “petty bourgeois” or liberal.

So more power to ya, friend. I’d love to read anything you come out with.

What part of rorschach’s views are revolutionary? Rorschach is a chud. Maybe his views are extreme but not revolutionary. False equivalence be wilin

You had me till your last sentence which I think is reformist, but since you stated your position so well im sure we could (hypothetically) work together in coalition.

I think its clear that there is a great deal of consumerism that exists in excess of peoples needs, but without a means to replace it with anything, since the consumerism is an expression of people’s social alienation, then there’s no material incentive for people to make these changes. It seems like the thrust of your ideas would work well along side certain anarchist and social libertarian ideas of dual power, which I think is also worth of criticisms but also is a step closer theoretically to a correct formula for change.

Confusion about the government’s role in class oppression, unawareness of what money is and how it operates, these are big questions that took me a long time to find sufficient and satisfying answers for them. If your like to share your zines or writings I’d at least give them a look! I read and contribute political and economic articles to some zines too, and frankly I’m just a fan of the form. I’m a bit older and diy zines were the first polisci I ever encountered, and now I’m a smelly commie, on watchlists and everything

You wont weaken the government by not paying biills. We don’t want a weaker state we want to smash the state and create a new one for and by workers not billionaires. How does weakening the government weaken their power? Right now the government is weaker than its been in 70 years and the billionaires are more powerful than ever.

I agree that a united, militant workers movement will weaken various structures that the rich use to reinforce their rule, including parts of the government but I think you need to develop your view of the state under capitalism because you still subscribe yo many false illusions. Its like people saying Luigi is going to tip the balance in class relations for the workers. Its just a kind of reformism or false consciousness that hopes that there is a step before what is necessary that would be good enough.

Organized mass payment strikes, I think strategically, like in healthcare, a mass movement could shake some things up, but likely it would just result in increased violence against the movement. Individuals not paying bills will literally not do shit. Individual action is basically worthless. In order for it to reach a critical tipping point, where a quantity of individual action transforms into change in political or economic quality, will take a lot of organization. And more power to you! Organize it and I’ll likely join. I’ll throw you a bone, but you have to provide the meat. Personally it’s not what I think is going to lead to greater worker consciousness and emancipation, but I’m just some guy. Organize it and prove me wrong.

What would crippling the government do other than massively harm regular people? Fight the real enemy, the billionaire class

I’m all for an organized, mass bill payment “strike” and some businesses would be effected, though not really any very large companies, who would benefit the most from having their competitors go out of business (and forced to sell or merge their assets for a fraction of their value) than we would by saving $100-200 per month, which we would spend, corporations would raise prices, and all of that money just flows back to the banks anyway.

Now tenant organizing and rent strikes, that’s where you can actually fuck shit up and make demands many times. But like your gas company doesn’t give I shit, you just won’t have heat, fuck you.

It would be nice if this was true but it still based on the illusion of a free market

The last time my wife and I went through Amish country, I saw a sign stapled high on a telephone pole, written with marker on pink poster board that said like “Yoder’s website design” and the number to call to presumably ask Yoder to make you a website.

People may not be familiar with Amish country, but there are tons of like construction companies, cabinet shops, etc., because people out here really like Amish made carpentry, so there’s lots of little businesses set up. Yoder is an Amish/Mennonite name, so I can imagine some young Mennonite guy selling like basic HTML/ CSS or like WordPress sites to all these little businesses that probably want a website but don’t use the internet themselves.

Or who knows maybe their web design is as good as their carpentry?

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Abandon the reformist democrats, return to democratic socialism (and don’t switch back!)

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