To be honest not using a calculator is so I don’t have to wait a minute for you to get out your phone, find the app, type It in, realize you typed it wrong, and then finally type it right just to do 4x5.
Like do you HAVE to be able to do this in your head? No, but it’ll make everything else we have to do a LOT less fucking annoying if you put in any effort because otherwise every step of everything you are going to do will be go to this thing and ask it what this is.
And most of math is mostly “can you learn something you might not enjoy and then use it to do other shit that takes longer than 10 seconds?” Most things aren’t particularly individually important. Idc if you remember the area of a triangle when you’re 45 but if you can’t learn something as easy as multiple the two numbers and divide by two and be able to use that then you’re gonna have bigger issues when you have to do literally anything.
Counterpoint: making things less annoying for neurotypicals years later is less important than allowing people with learning disorders and other related disabilities to easier keep up with their peers and build familiarity with the tools like the ones they’re going to rely on for the rest of their lives.
To be all egocentric and stuff, I’ll use myself as an only tangentially related example:
Growing up with undiagnosed ADHD, I had horrendous fine motor control coupled with a profound difficulty with retaining focus on anything that saps my already chronically low dopamine levels, which made anything I have to write by hand much shorter and of much lesser quality than what I’m otherwise capable of.
Being part of the first group of students to be allowed to do our written exams on a (pre-vetted and not connected to the internet) computer helped me IMMENSELY without giving me any unfair advantage.
Not really a counterpoint, they’re talking about how a person can make their life easier by learning something. Your example is analogous.
You learned a different way to record the written word to make life easier. OP is talking about learning a different way to calculate numbers, to make life easier. They’re the same.
No you are talking about using a tool to help/supplement your learning. That is good.
I am responding to people saying they should never learn anything in the first place because a calculator could do it for them.
There ARE some things (like in stats) that you will just use a calculator for because it’s a HUGE waste of time otherwise (like Standard Deviation especially), but refusing to put in effort on things like multiplication, which will get used like 5 times in one problem, means you are taking yourself out of the problem 5 different times to use something else. For the ADHD kid there’s no way your focus is staying on that problem if you have to go elsewhere (especially to a phone which has infinite distractions) 5 different times.
Then when we need to use the actual concept to do something else, like factoring, those who actually learned and know the patterns will be able to solve the puzzle almost instantly. What multiplies to 64 and adds to 16 SHOULD be an easy 8 and 8, but on a calculator you’re doing 64/1=64 1+64≠16, 64/2=32 2+32≠16, 64/3 has a decimal so no, 64/4=16 4+16≠16, etc until you find the answer that works. (Which is fine, if you need to, and generally how I will START teaching it, but again the reason for doing it using the brain is so you learn those patterns and can then not have to remove yourself from the problem but actively engage in the problem by trying to use the patterns or things you’ve learned)
… in the way that what you just typed is because dislexia exists and thus how dare you make written words? Sure.
But like yeah, big surprise when teaching kids you’ve gotta take everything into account. Dyscalculia is highly dependent on the kid and isn’t something you can really just use a universal design for learning on as they do need more specific help. Even then, the general idea of the kid is gonna need to put in effort will apply, their effort might look different, but its still their effort.
Students struggling with dyscalculia generally have been putting extra effort to understand and keep up their entire life.
Brains and ability vary wildly, some people do not have an internal dialogue, some people do mot have the ability to visualize, some people do not understand metaphors, and some people never develop the ability to get accurate results when doing mental calculations. Sometimes, no amount of trying harder is effective, saying just try harder is both ableist and insulting.
A calculator is simply a tool that helps reduce the struggle and associated stress while improving accuracy. To deny that tool is not just ableist, but also cruel.
Again their effort might look different, which means yeah if that kid has dyscalculia and a calculator helps, then yeah that is no problem. However, dyscalulia is also just… weird. Its highly different in different students and iirc it does tend to go away eventually. Effort is important in that, but so is being understanding of how tiring dealing with it can be, so breaks in that increased effort for that student (be it calculator or other tools or just literal breaks) is important. And my point with the snark on writing being: Of course you can find issue with any general statement if you just decide to throw something hyper specific into it, yes of course there are always exceptions, but those can be dealt with on an individual as needed basis.
My problem is not with calculators. Its with refusing to put in effort to learning something because you’ve decided something could do that for you and so there is zero reason to learn anything at all. However, even for those who struggle, a calculator takes you out of the problem, often multiple times per problem, and makes re-entering that problem, remembering where you were, what you were doing, and how you were doing it harder for many with disabilities as well. The goal of effort in not using calculators is to keep you inside the problem, so you don’t break your chain of thought and can more easily finish the entire problem. Obviously, that takes time as at the start it will actually take you out of the problem longer as you have to do those in your head, but as you get used to it that helps build the mental connections needed.
You won’t always have a calculator with you.
So far I have had a calculator on me 24/7 for the last 20 years.
To be honest not using a calculator is so I don’t have to wait a minute for you to get out your phone, find the app, type It in, realize you typed it wrong, and then finally type it right just to do 4x5.
Like do you HAVE to be able to do this in your head? No, but it’ll make everything else we have to do a LOT less fucking annoying if you put in any effort because otherwise every step of everything you are going to do will be go to this thing and ask it what this is.
And most of math is mostly “can you learn something you might not enjoy and then use it to do other shit that takes longer than 10 seconds?” Most things aren’t particularly individually important. Idc if you remember the area of a triangle when you’re 45 but if you can’t learn something as easy as multiple the two numbers and divide by two and be able to use that then you’re gonna have bigger issues when you have to do literally anything.
Counterpoint: making things less annoying for neurotypicals years later is less important than allowing people with learning disorders and other related disabilities to easier keep up with their peers and build familiarity with the tools like the ones they’re going to rely on for the rest of their lives.
To be all egocentric and stuff, I’ll use myself as an only tangentially related example:
Growing up with undiagnosed ADHD, I had horrendous fine motor control coupled with a profound difficulty with retaining focus on anything that saps my already chronically low dopamine levels, which made anything I have to write by hand much shorter and of much lesser quality than what I’m otherwise capable of.
Being part of the first group of students to be allowed to do our written exams on a (pre-vetted and not connected to the internet) computer helped me IMMENSELY without giving me any unfair advantage.
Not really a counterpoint, they’re talking about how a person can make their life easier by learning something. Your example is analogous.
You learned a different way to record the written word to make life easier. OP is talking about learning a different way to calculate numbers, to make life easier. They’re the same.
No you are talking about using a tool to help/supplement your learning. That is good.
I am responding to people saying they should never learn anything in the first place because a calculator could do it for them.
There ARE some things (like in stats) that you will just use a calculator for because it’s a HUGE waste of time otherwise (like Standard Deviation especially), but refusing to put in effort on things like multiplication, which will get used like 5 times in one problem, means you are taking yourself out of the problem 5 different times to use something else. For the ADHD kid there’s no way your focus is staying on that problem if you have to go elsewhere (especially to a phone which has infinite distractions) 5 different times.
Then when we need to use the actual concept to do something else, like factoring, those who actually learned and know the patterns will be able to solve the puzzle almost instantly. What multiplies to 64 and adds to 16 SHOULD be an easy 8 and 8, but on a calculator you’re doing 64/1=64 1+64≠16, 64/2=32 2+32≠16, 64/3 has a decimal so no, 64/4=16 4+16≠16, etc until you find the answer that works. (Which is fine, if you need to, and generally how I will START teaching it, but again the reason for doing it using the brain is so you learn those patterns and can then not have to remove yourself from the problem but actively engage in the problem by trying to use the patterns or things you’ve learned)
Dyscalculia exists. Does that fact that make your argument ableist?
… in the way that what you just typed is because dislexia exists and thus how dare you make written words? Sure.
But like yeah, big surprise when teaching kids you’ve gotta take everything into account. Dyscalculia is highly dependent on the kid and isn’t something you can really just use a universal design for learning on as they do need more specific help. Even then, the general idea of the kid is gonna need to put in effort will apply, their effort might look different, but its still their effort.
No, not my meaning at all.
Students struggling with dyscalculia generally have been putting extra effort to understand and keep up their entire life.
Brains and ability vary wildly, some people do not have an internal dialogue, some people do mot have the ability to visualize, some people do not understand metaphors, and some people never develop the ability to get accurate results when doing mental calculations. Sometimes, no amount of trying harder is effective, saying just try harder is both ableist and insulting.
A calculator is simply a tool that helps reduce the struggle and associated stress while improving accuracy. To deny that tool is not just ableist, but also cruel.
Again their effort might look different, which means yeah if that kid has dyscalculia and a calculator helps, then yeah that is no problem. However, dyscalulia is also just… weird. Its highly different in different students and iirc it does tend to go away eventually. Effort is important in that, but so is being understanding of how tiring dealing with it can be, so breaks in that increased effort for that student (be it calculator or other tools or just literal breaks) is important. And my point with the snark on writing being: Of course you can find issue with any general statement if you just decide to throw something hyper specific into it, yes of course there are always exceptions, but those can be dealt with on an individual as needed basis.
My problem is not with calculators. Its with refusing to put in effort to learning something because you’ve decided something could do that for you and so there is zero reason to learn anything at all. However, even for those who struggle, a calculator takes you out of the problem, often multiple times per problem, and makes re-entering that problem, remembering where you were, what you were doing, and how you were doing it harder for many with disabilities as well. The goal of effort in not using calculators is to keep you inside the problem, so you don’t break your chain of thought and can more easily finish the entire problem. Obviously, that takes time as at the start it will actually take you out of the problem longer as you have to do those in your head, but as you get used to it that helps build the mental connections needed.
Ableist screed
But what if you needed to do long division in the shower?
Mine is IP68 water resistant. It can handle the shower.
But what if you need to calculate the square root of pi while swimming to the bottom of the Mariana Trench?
Not when your fingees are all wet trying to touch the screen
Skill issue.
I can use my phone even with wet fingers and with a screen protector