Sure, fundamentally people who engage with a right wing version of a populist message are still looking for the same things. But where the separation happens is how these groups deal with negative externalities.
A random person who is part of a right wing coalition in the US will burn down everything good to ensure that someone they don’t like doesn’t get even a taste of a good life. Then you just have convince them who that enemy is. Compassion is a true weakness when the person you are compassionate for isn’t you in a mirror.
I’m not saying you don’t reach out with a message, I’m saying don’t be fooled into thinking people who agree with making a living wage and universal Healthcare agree with EVERYONE making a living wage and having Healthcare. In fact they would rather not have it if it means you also get it.
I really have to disagree with that last part. Or, at least in the way you’re framing it as unchangeable.
It is looking at the world from the perspective of idealism. Meaning that the people that you say “would rather not have something if it means someone they hate also gets it”
You’re starting with that “thought” as being the origin of what makes the world the way it is. That there are just some people that think that way. So there is nothing to be done for that.
It’s, in a similar way, how right wingers think about homeless people. That there are just some people that choose to be homeless. That it is unchangeable through changes to our systems or structures or education. They point to the one guy that says “I want to live here” to justify it as unchangeable and unsolvable.
Now, are people that “think that way” able to have their minds changed? Maybe not all. Maybe not most. I’d agree that it’s likely a waste of time to work on changing the minds of those people directly.
What I am talking about is what are the ideas and material circumstances that lead people to becoming that way? Their type of believe is antihuman. It’s antisocial. It’s even harmful to themselves. How can we prevent people growing up today from becoming people that think that way. THAT is what’s important in understanding.
So, I guess I’ll just ask you what you think. What makes people believe that harming themselves is good as long as it harms another group MORE? Racism, sexism, etc. Yes. But you and I both know those are all lies they believe. Lies about gender. Lies about race. What is something that is true in their belief that they use those lies to answer?
I’d agree that it’s likely a waste of time to work on changing the minds of those people directly.
Now add the urgency factor. They are fucking with us right now, and that will only get worse until we stop them. That’s a power issue, not a matter of judicious application of sweet reason.
Not sure what point you’re making in the context of what you quoted. You’re replying to a comment that was written to try and help someone with a specific belief (“people are just like that”) and get them to attempt to think of the material factors that caused that belief.
My point was that “people just think that way” is a self defeating perspective. I believe that we CAN defeat and prevent harmful ideas that are rooted (not in the mind alone) but influenced and accepted because of material causes.
So, I can’t really tell what you mean. Are you saying that trying to “convince” them is unfruitful? If so, I agree. Someone is often very times unable to simply change their beliefs through the introduction of well explained reason.
But, that was going to be my conclusion. I was attempting to baby step them there. That people are not quickly moved through ideas. The masses are moved through the material conditions that govern those ideas.
A young adult able to afford rent and to live is less likely to join the military and bomb brown children. A young adult that doesn’t have to work 7 days a week for multiple jobs is less likely to believe ideas of white supremacy that promise them comforting lies.
People aren’t “just like that”. There are very real and very quickly changeable conditions that influence someone’s probability of being “like that”.
Sorry. A rant. But since you replied I wanted to at least get to the conclusion I was trying to reach in conversation.
Ahh idealism, I remember that shit. I think people suck at a fundamental level, only humans are capable of being anti human, and they do it frequently. You want a rational answer to an irrational response, the answer is that it doesn’t matter. Spin your wheels trying to dig turds out of a toilet.
Just a downvote and no response? I’m ok with a misunderstanding mate. I honestly thought I was a good conversation to have and liked your initial comment. But, damn, you confuse the meaning of a word I used and give a snarky reply you’re gonna get one in return.
What you are doing is “Idealism” literally in your response. Here, I’ll help you out, because you seem to be confused.
Idealism is a philosophical approach that prioritizes mind, spirit, or consciousness as the primary reality, asserting that material things exist only as perceptions or mental constructs
You asserted that “people are just that way”. You are an Idealist. You think that these people come to these beliefs first through their mind. Not through their lived experiences.
I think you are confusing “Idealism” with someone being “idealistic”. Because your response really sounds like you have no idea what I was talking about.
Sure, fundamentally people who engage with a right wing version of a populist message are still looking for the same things. But where the separation happens is how these groups deal with negative externalities.
A random person who is part of a right wing coalition in the US will burn down everything good to ensure that someone they don’t like doesn’t get even a taste of a good life. Then you just have convince them who that enemy is. Compassion is a true weakness when the person you are compassionate for isn’t you in a mirror.
I’m not saying you don’t reach out with a message, I’m saying don’t be fooled into thinking people who agree with making a living wage and universal Healthcare agree with EVERYONE making a living wage and having Healthcare. In fact they would rather not have it if it means you also get it.
I really have to disagree with that last part. Or, at least in the way you’re framing it as unchangeable.
It is looking at the world from the perspective of idealism. Meaning that the people that you say “would rather not have something if it means someone they hate also gets it”
You’re starting with that “thought” as being the origin of what makes the world the way it is. That there are just some people that think that way. So there is nothing to be done for that.
It’s, in a similar way, how right wingers think about homeless people. That there are just some people that choose to be homeless. That it is unchangeable through changes to our systems or structures or education. They point to the one guy that says “I want to live here” to justify it as unchangeable and unsolvable.
Now, are people that “think that way” able to have their minds changed? Maybe not all. Maybe not most. I’d agree that it’s likely a waste of time to work on changing the minds of those people directly.
What I am talking about is what are the ideas and material circumstances that lead people to becoming that way? Their type of believe is antihuman. It’s antisocial. It’s even harmful to themselves. How can we prevent people growing up today from becoming people that think that way. THAT is what’s important in understanding.
So, I guess I’ll just ask you what you think. What makes people believe that harming themselves is good as long as it harms another group MORE? Racism, sexism, etc. Yes. But you and I both know those are all lies they believe. Lies about gender. Lies about race. What is something that is true in their belief that they use those lies to answer?
Now add the urgency factor. They are fucking with us right now, and that will only get worse until we stop them. That’s a power issue, not a matter of judicious application of sweet reason.
Not sure what point you’re making in the context of what you quoted. You’re replying to a comment that was written to try and help someone with a specific belief (“people are just like that”) and get them to attempt to think of the material factors that caused that belief.
My point was that “people just think that way” is a self defeating perspective. I believe that we CAN defeat and prevent harmful ideas that are rooted (not in the mind alone) but influenced and accepted because of material causes.
So, I can’t really tell what you mean. Are you saying that trying to “convince” them is unfruitful? If so, I agree. Someone is often very times unable to simply change their beliefs through the introduction of well explained reason.
But, that was going to be my conclusion. I was attempting to baby step them there. That people are not quickly moved through ideas. The masses are moved through the material conditions that govern those ideas.
A young adult able to afford rent and to live is less likely to join the military and bomb brown children. A young adult that doesn’t have to work 7 days a week for multiple jobs is less likely to believe ideas of white supremacy that promise them comforting lies.
People aren’t “just like that”. There are very real and very quickly changeable conditions that influence someone’s probability of being “like that”.
Sorry. A rant. But since you replied I wanted to at least get to the conclusion I was trying to reach in conversation.
Ahh idealism, I remember that shit. I think people suck at a fundamental level, only humans are capable of being anti human, and they do it frequently. You want a rational answer to an irrational response, the answer is that it doesn’t matter. Spin your wheels trying to dig turds out of a toilet.
Just a downvote and no response? I’m ok with a misunderstanding mate. I honestly thought I was a good conversation to have and liked your initial comment. But, damn, you confuse the meaning of a word I used and give a snarky reply you’re gonna get one in return.
I didn’t downvoted any of your comments, I’m just done with thy convo, that was my last piece.
What you are doing is “Idealism” literally in your response. Here, I’ll help you out, because you seem to be confused.
You asserted that “people are just that way”. You are an Idealist. You think that these people come to these beliefs first through their mind. Not through their lived experiences.
I think you are confusing “Idealism” with someone being “idealistic”. Because your response really sounds like you have no idea what I was talking about.