Call me crusty, old-fart, unwilling to embrace change… but docker has always felt like a cop-out to me as a dev. Figure out what breaks and fix it so your app is more robust, stop being lazy.
I pretty much refuse to install any app which only ships as a docker install.
No need to reply to this, you don’t have to agree and I know the battle has been already lost. I don’t care. Hmmph.
Don’t you get it? We’ve saved time and added some reliability to the software! It. Sure it takes 3-5x the resources it needs and costs everyone else money - WE saved time and can say it’s reliable. /S
None, in fact, because I still haven’t got in to using docker! But that is one of the factors that pushes it down the list of things to learn.
I’ve had a number of low-storage laptops, mostly on account of low budget. Ever since taking an 8GB netbook for work (and personal) in the mountains, I’ve developed space-saving strategies and habits!
I love docker… I use it at work and I use it at home.
But I don’t see much reason to use it on a laptop? It’s more of a server thing. I have no docker/podman containers running on my PCs, but I have like 40 of em on my home NAS.
Yeah, I wonder if these people are just being grumpy grognards about something they don’t at all understand? Personal computers are not the use case here.
“Grumpy Grognard”. Do we have flairs on Lemmy? I can subtitle myself, grumpy grognard.
Fair point that laptops aren’t really the use case, though there have been times I’ve wanted to try things out on my laptop - actually that’s a reason I still want to learn podman or docker, because I hope it’s a way to try server-y things on my laptop without polluting my system, and being able to cleanly uninstall.
But okay, space on servers. I have a VPS with 20gb storage. And that has to include my backup data that lives there.
If this is your take your exposure has been pretty limited. While I agree some devs take it to the extreme, Docker is not a cop out. It (and similar containerization platforms) are invaluable tools.
Using devcontainers (Docker containers in the IDE, basically) I’m able to get my team developing in a consistent environment in mere minutes, without needing to bother IT.
Using Docker orchestration I’m able to do a lot in prod, such as automatic scaling, continuous deployment with automated testing, and in worst case near instantaneous reverts to a previously good state.
And that’s just how I use it as a dev.
As self hosting enthusiast I can deploy new OSS projects without stepping through a lengthy install guide listing various obscure requirements, and if I did want to skip the container (which I’ve only done a few things) I can simply read the Dockerfile to figure out what I need to do instead of hoping the install guide covers all the bases.
And if I need to migrate to a new host? A few DNS updates and SCP/rsync later and I’m done.
Docker is more than a cop out for than one use case. It’s a way for quickly deploy an app irrespective of an environment, so you can scale and rebuild quickly. It fixes a problem that used to be solved by VMs, so in that way it’s more efficient.
Well, nope. For example, FreeBSD doesn’t support Docker – I can’t run dockerized software “irrespective of environment”. It has to be run on one of supported platforms, which I don’t use unfortunately.
To deploy a docker container to a Windows host you first need to install a Linux virtual machine (via WSL which is using Hyper-V under the hood).
It’s basically the same process for FreeBSD (minus the optimizations), right?
Containers still need to match the host OS/architecture they are just sandboxed and layer in their own dependencies separate from the host.
But yeah you can’t run them directly. Same for Windows except I guess there are actual windows docker containers that don’t require WSL but if people actually use those it’d be news to me.
Docker or containers in general provide isolation too, not just declarative image generation, it’s all neatly packaged into one tool that isn’t that heavy on the system either, it’s not a cop out at all.
If I could choose, not for laziness, but for reproducibility and compatibility, I would only package software in 3 formats:
Nix package
Container image
Flatpak
The rest of the native packaging formats are all good in their own way, but not as good. Some may have specific use cased that make them best like Appimage, soooo result…
Yeah, no universal packaging format yet
I hate that it puts package management in Devs hands. The same Devs that usually want root access to run their application and don’t know a vulnerability scan for the life of them. So now rather than having the one up to date version of a package on my system I may have 3 different old ones with differing vulnerabilities and devs that don’t want to change it because “I need this version because it works!”
Call me crusty, old-fart, unwilling to embrace change… but docker has always felt like a cop-out to me as a dev. Figure out what breaks and fix it so your app is more robust, stop being lazy.
I pretty much refuse to install any app which only ships as a docker install.
No need to reply to this, you don’t have to agree and I know the battle has been already lost. I don’t care. Hmmph.
Why put in a little effort when we can just waste a gigabyte of your hard drive instead?
I have similar feelings about how every website is now a JavaScript application.
Yeah, my time is way more valuable than a gigabyte of drive space. In what world is anyone’s not today?
It’s a gigabyte of every customer’s drive space.
The value add is even better from a customers perspective.
That I can install far less software on legacy devices because everything new is ridiculously bloated?
Don’t you get it? We’ve saved time and added some reliability to the software! It. Sure it takes 3-5x the resources it needs and costs everyone else money - WE saved time and can say it’s reliable. /S
3-5x the resources my ass.
Mine, on my 128gb dual boot laptop.
How many docker containers would you deploy on a laptop? Also 128gb is tiny even for an SSD these days .
None, in fact, because I still haven’t got in to using docker! But that is one of the factors that pushes it down the list of things to learn.
I’ve had a number of low-storage laptops, mostly on account of low budget. Ever since taking an 8GB netbook for work (and personal) in the mountains, I’ve developed space-saving strategies and habits!
I love docker… I use it at work and I use it at home.
But I don’t see much reason to use it on a laptop? It’s more of a server thing. I have no docker/podman containers running on my PCs, but I have like 40 of em on my home NAS.
Yeah, I wonder if these people are just being grumpy grognards about something they don’t at all understand? Personal computers are not the use case here.
“Grumpy Grognard”. Do we have flairs on Lemmy? I can subtitle myself, grumpy grognard.
Fair point that laptops aren’t really the use case, though there have been times I’ve wanted to try things out on my laptop - actually that’s a reason I still want to learn podman or docker, because I hope it’s a way to try server-y things on my laptop without polluting my system, and being able to cleanly uninstall.
But okay, space on servers. I have a VPS with 20gb storage. And that has to include my backup data that lives there.
If this is your take your exposure has been pretty limited. While I agree some devs take it to the extreme, Docker is not a cop out. It (and similar containerization platforms) are invaluable tools.
Using devcontainers (Docker containers in the IDE, basically) I’m able to get my team developing in a consistent environment in mere minutes, without needing to bother IT.
Using Docker orchestration I’m able to do a lot in prod, such as automatic scaling, continuous deployment with automated testing, and in worst case near instantaneous reverts to a previously good state.
And that’s just how I use it as a dev.
As self hosting enthusiast I can deploy new OSS projects without stepping through a lengthy install guide listing various obscure requirements, and if I did want to skip the container (which I’ve only done a few things) I can simply read the Dockerfile to figure out what I need to do instead of hoping the install guide covers all the bases.
And if I need to migrate to a new host? A few DNS updates and SCP/rsync later and I’m done.
Docker is more than a cop out for than one use case. It’s a way for quickly deploy an app irrespective of an environment, so you can scale and rebuild quickly. It fixes a problem that used to be solved by VMs, so in that way it’s more efficient.
Well, nope. For example, FreeBSD doesn’t support Docker – I can’t run dockerized software “irrespective of environment”. It has to be run on one of supported platforms, which I don’t use unfortunately.
To deploy a docker container to a Windows host you first need to install a Linux virtual machine (via WSL which is using Hyper-V under the hood).
It’s basically the same process for FreeBSD (minus the optimizations), right?
Containers still need to match the host OS/architecture they are just sandboxed and layer in their own dependencies separate from the host.
But yeah you can’t run them directly. Same for Windows except I guess there are actual windows docker containers that don’t require WSL but if people actually use those it’d be news to me.
There’s also this cursed thing called Windows containers
Now let me go wash my hands, keyboard and my screen after typing that
Docker or containers in general provide isolation too, not just declarative image generation, it’s all neatly packaged into one tool that isn’t that heavy on the system either, it’s not a cop out at all.
If I could choose, not for laziness, but for reproducibility and compatibility, I would only package software in 3 formats:
The rest of the native packaging formats are all good in their own way, but not as good. Some may have specific use cased that make them best like Appimage, soooo result…
Yeah, no universal packaging format yet
I hate that it puts package management in Devs hands. The same Devs that usually want root access to run their application and don’t know a vulnerability scan for the life of them. So now rather than having the one up to date version of a package on my system I may have 3 different old ones with differing vulnerabilities and devs that don’t want to change it because “I need this version because it works!”